I am happy that Jack has agreed to study baptism with me. It is fun and profitable when brethren can discuss issues in a brotherly manner as you will see in this discussion.
Jack has pledged to affirm the following proposition: The Scriptures teach that one is saved at the point of faith, before and without water baptism.
I deny that the above is true and shall respond to Jack's comments accordingly. After one or two more exchanges the plan is that I will affirm the reverse of the proposition.
1. Saved
RW: I have no problem with Jack's definition of the word "saved."
2. Faith
RW: I understand that Jack does not believe that mere acknowledgment of the fact of God or Jesus saves. He contends that "complete confidence in God" "inward repentance," which "includes a resolve to turn from sin to obedience to God's will," is what is required and "involves the choice of love…as the first and entire purpose of all that one does in life." Thus, I think we have established that Jack does not believe in "faith only" but that he believes that a number of matters (as noted) are involved in the initial approval or grace received of God to become a child of God. Jack stated that "mere mental ascent to certain facts" is not what saves, but "is much deeper than that." We are in agreement at this point. The only possible difference we have here is that I believe more is involved in being saved by faith than Jack is now contending for.
3. Baptism
Regarding churches of Christ, Jack states that "a culture has been built around supporting the idea that unless one is baptized in water they are not saved. Furthermore, the idea exists within many in (sof) churches of Christ that anyone who denies this is saying that baptism is unimportant.…"
I wish to clarify what I believe to be the thinking regarding the above. The thinking is (by COC members) that those who teach salvation at the point of faith do not understand that God has established a point at which a believer can say when he was saved and when he became a Christian. (God's design or plan is visible to at least one witness.) While one might believe being baptized is important he might not understand just HOW important it is.
Jack stated, "True faith wants to keep every command of God, including the command to be baptized."
While I agree with the above I wish to add that true faith also accepts what God's word says about the point when one's sins are "washed away" or removed. There are several passages that state that God forgives at the point of being immersed, but when one rationalizes that there is no power in "water" to save, and therefore what is said cannot be true, that one's faith in God's word is brought into question. I recognize that one can reach the wrong conclusions regarding various doctrines based upon what appears to be clear teaching. Thus, I will try to maintain an open mind later when Jack is in the negative and seeks to explain, in a way that will support his proposition, the passages that teach on baptism.
Affirmation Argument 1.
"The Bible states that salvation is by faith, apart from outward works."
Jack makes an argument based upon Romans 4:1-8. The text he uses here deals with how one who is a child of God is justified or forgiven of sin. I believe the "blessed" persons that David spoke of are those who "walk in the light." These commit sins inadvertently and ignorantly but are not taken into account, as the text says. This text has nothing to do with how a person gets into Christ.
"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10 NASB)
The text above, which Jack offered, does not support the idea that salvation is at the point of faith. It merely teaches that when one is saved it is God doing the saving. When one reads the entire text (which Jack quoted) it should become evident that Paul had no intention of deemphasizing the value of works or the need to "obey the gospel." Certainly he was not teaching that salvation comes at the point of faith.
Jack wrote: "In another passage Paul associates the idea of circumcision with baptism."
"And in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead." (Colossians 2:11-12 NASB)
"If we can understand Paul's argument on circumcision then we ought to be able to understand the Bible's teaching on baptism just as clearly. The Christian's circumcision (the removal of guilt) takes place at the point of faith, and is symbolized in baptism, just as Abraham entered a relationship with God through faith and then later (many years later) circumcision symbolized that relationship."
RW: I suppose that understanding the text quoted above ought to help us "understand the Bible's teaching on baptism." Or it would be helpful to study the entire context. Note the very next verse: "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
It seem apparent that when one is immersed into water he is then raised up with Christ because of the faith he has in the operation and it is at this very point that he is made alive and forgiven of all trespasses.
In the Hebrews letter, the "blood sprinkled heart" (the removal of guilt through the blood of Christ) and baptism are spoken of as separate things.
Let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. (Hebrews 10:22 NASB)
Jack admits, "Yes, they are closely associated." He continues: "One of the first outward acts of a person who has chosen faith is baptism, but there is a distinction between the idea of faith and the idea of baptism. One leads to the other. There is a difference between sprinkling and immersion. One is the point of cleaning, and the other symbolizes that cleansing in an outward way as the language of the Hebrew writer in chapter 9 indicates."
Jack, forgiveness and baptism are separate things. God has forgiven people in the past in various ways other then when they are baptized and He forgives his children today as we "walk in the light." I see nothing in this text that supports the idea that God forgives at the point of faith. Certainly the text does not teach that baptism is a mere symbol of something that took place previously.
Jack's conclusion: "My goal is to call the attention of my brethren in churches of Christ back to a salvation that comes as the result of faith, and not one of works. The works view of salvation has filled churches of Christ with sectarianism, legalism and judgmentalism. My only goal is to arrest those problems by calling us back to a better understanding of God's will for us.
RW: Jack, your goal is a worthy endeavor, but you do not have to deny what the scriptures teach about baptism to make progress in accomplishing your goal. Just teach the truth about grace and forgiveness of sins.
Argument 2.
"The Bible states that salvation is by faith or belief."
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, (Romans 5:1 NASB)
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16 NASB)
"I'm sure Brother Waters will want to present a negation of these passages and when he does so I will be happy to review it, but for now I think the reader should be impressed with the fact that the Bible clearly states salvation is by faith."
RW: Yes, salvation is by faith but one can believe this and also believe that baptism is a faith response that results in blessings that God has promised - namely, "forgiveness of sins."
W.E. Vine states that "believeth" (in the text above) means, "Faith conjoined with obedience." Coming from a Baptist who believes salvation is at the point of faith, as Jack is now contending; what Vine said is quite an admission.
RW: Referring to James chapter 2 Jack says, "First comes the faith and then comes the works."
I don't have a problem with the above, but I fail to see how this helps Jack prove his proposition. James goes on to talk about "dead faith." He says "faith without works is dead." The living faith is apparently one joined by works. He concluded by saying justification is by "works and not by faith only." Thus, Jack already has to deal with this difficult text (for him) and to explain how being saved without doing anything is not tantamount to being saved by a "dead faith." I'm not prepared to argue that baptism is a work, because it is something someone else does to you, but it is involved in God's plan of salvation, which must not be dismissed as non-essential.
Jack wrote: "Also notice, that James does not write James 2 to the unsaved, but to the saved to encourage them to exercise their faith with good works, and the example he uses in the passage of Abraham does not refer to Abraham's initial salvation but to his faith working years later. This point is very significant."
RW: What is written by James may be to the saved but the facts regarding a faith without actions being a "dead faith" and how one is justified apply to the topic, which is justification or salvation.
Argument 3.
Jack wrote:
"The Bible teaches that outward works like baptism symbolize or picture the true spiritual inward reality of salvation."
RW: Jack, baptism is not something one does as a work. Someone else does it to you and it is a one time thing. It is done as an appeal to God for a clear conscience knowing that He will at that point forgive you (1 Pet. 3:21).
"Christian baptism, like the washings (Hebrews 9:10, from the Greek baptismos) of the Old Testament, is a regulation for the body, but it cannot make the worshipper perfect in mind or conscious anymore than the baptisms of the Old Law could."
RW: I agree that there is no power to forgive sin in water itself. But one can acknowledge this fact and yet understand that obeying the command to be baptized is a condition required to receive a promised blessing. When one obeys this command, with the proper prerequisites, GOD makes the worshipper perfect in mind or conscience, as is clearly the teaching of 1 Pet. 3:21. Note the rendering from the versions quoted below:
(GW) Baptism, which is like that water, now saves you. Baptism doesn't save by removing dirt from the body. Rather, baptism is a request to God for a clear conscience. It saves you through Jesus Christ, who came back from death to life.
(ISV) Baptism, which is symbolized by that water, now saves you also, not by removing dirt from the body, but by asking God for a clear conscience based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Jack used Heb. 9:8-10 (passages regarding things done under the Law) to show that "Christian baptism is a shadow and type of salvation, but not the reality of it." He said, "It pictures that salvation, inward transformation, cleansing, and forgiveness that takes place in the heart."
RW: The forgiveness that takes place when one becomes a Christian is not in the heart of man, but is in the mind of God. We are asking him to do it when we are baptized. Peter says (in this same context) "baptism also now saves us." He compares it to Noah and his family being saved by water. There was no power in the water that had a part in saving Noah or in saving us today, but it had and has a part in God's plan for saving.
Jack wrote: "It pictures the death of Christ and faith in Christ, which are the substance, but baptism itself is not the substance but a shadow or symbol."
RW: The text does not teach that baptism is merely a symbol but rather that what God did in saving Noah using water is an antitype or form of what baptism accomplishes. The meaning is that baptism corresponded to, or had a resemblance to, the water by which Noah was saved. God's plan to save the world involved water. The world rejected God's plan because it was foolishness to them. Only Noah and his family had enough faith in God to give a positive response to what appeared to most to be mere foolishness (1Cor. 2:14). In that day there had been no floods. The excuse in our day is that "there is no power in water." The results will be the same, destruction for those who refuse to obey.
Jack wrote: "Many in churches of Christ, in teaching baptism as they do, are making the same mistake the Jews did with the outward works of religion in the Old Testament."
"What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." (Romans 9:30-33 NASB)
RW: Again, the above argument assumes that baptism is a work of merit. Baptism is merely a condition that God has given for one to be forgiven of past sins and added to the number of the saved (Acts 2:38, 41). Any problem that members of Christ's church have (and there are some) is not due to believing and teaching that one gets into Christ at the point of baptism.
Jack continued: "So it is with those who wrap salvation literally in baptism -- they pursue it as though it is by works instead of by faith. Consequently, the one who dies on the way to the baptistery is lacking because he lacks the outward works…."
RW: Again, baptism is not a work. I can't imagine one coming up from the water and saying, "Look what I have done." I did, however, baptize a man once who, upon arising, said, "Thank you, Jesus!" It was work on my part. I prepared the baptistery, put on the proper attire and provided him with the proper attire, then said some words, immersed him and helped him up. But HE did not do any work. His part was completely passive. It was an act of submission, a faith response. Thus, Jack's argument about baptism being merely an "outward work" is not sound.
Jack asked: "Brother Waters, in your first negative will you please tell us whether or not you believe that one who has true faith, but who dies on the way to the baptistery is saved?" RW: First, I have never known or heard of anyone being killed on the way to the baptistery. (I have no doubt that through His providence He could prevent it from happening.) I have known some to be concerned about it (on their way to the baptistery on a dangerous road) because they believed what God's word says about the necessity of it. Second, I cannot disbelieve what God has said simply because of the possibility of one not receiving the blessing of obeying God when he did not fully obey. God's word tells us that we are baptized into Christ (1 Cor. 12:13; Col 1:14) and that all spiritual blessings are in Christ (Eph. 1:3). Thus, I can only believe that those who get into Christ, as prescribed by God, are the ones that will receive the promised blessing.
Jack wrote: "I'm sure that in his rebuttal Brother Waters will treat us to a list of passages that speak of baptism and connect it with one or more aspects of initial salvation. I just want the reader to remember that I don't deny any of those passages. I just believe Brother Waters is making literal what the Bible clearly teaches is symbolic. Baptism has no real power to actually forgive sins, wash sins away, or to save. Baptism does symbolize all of those things." RW: Jack has not established that baptism is not literal and the question of whether water has any real power to actually forgive sins is not an issue. When I am in the affirmative I will point out and press the teaching of various passages that teach that baptism is the point that God forgives one's sins and adds him to His church. Jack has yet to provide evidence that proves his proposition. Nevertheless, I urge the reader to read both sides of this discussion with the view that you could be wrong and with a determination to know and obey what the Bible says.